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Post by Alexander Kincaid on Nov 2, 2020 1:32:43 GMT -5
This came up in a scene recently. The ST call on the spot was different to every other game that I've been in and how this is going to be officially interpreted going forward may strongly impact both combat scenes and use of DTAs, so I felt it was worth following up on.
As seen on p. 229 of W20:
The interpretation in the scene was that this talen heals one health level per success scored on the activation roll, up to a maximum of four. However there is no mention in the talen's mechanics regarding the amount of healing relying on the activation roll. By contrast both Rage healing (p. 144) and Mother's Touch (p. 165) are explicit that they heal based on successes rolled.
My understanding has always been that Gaia's Breath, like other talens, has a standard effect upon activation that is not connected to the activation roll beyond the fact that one is required to make the talen work. I would appreciate official feedback from the ST consensus about this so that I can be certain of how to interpret it going forward.
Thanks.
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Post by Da Boss on Nov 2, 2020 19:31:55 GMT -5
It was run as written. There must be a roll, or else the phrase "the talen heals up to four health levels of damage (even aggravated damage)" would simply say that "the talen heals four health levels of damage (even aggravated damage)." As the talen itself does not state what roll is made, the activation roll is used to determine how successful the item is in healing another.
For example, Bane arrows state that they automatically hit and deal 3 dice of damage, not that they deal "up to three dice of damage." Allowing Gaia's Breath and Chiroptean spies to automatically be worthy of their full amounts defeats the purpose in them having different language then Ban Arrows. Otherwise we are not reading the rules as written and are House Ruling those two phrases to mean the same thing.
As for strongly impacting combat and DTAs, keep in mind that learning rituals can be paid for with talens, so making them is always to your advantage. Additionally, having any non-theurge in a group with the ability to heal damage in combat is always an advantage. Especially when it doesn't require an out of tribe or auspice gift to be able to do the healing.
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Post by Alexander Kincaid on Nov 2, 2020 20:56:43 GMT -5
My understanding of this mechanic has always been that the 'up to' part is capped by the number of levels of damage the recipient has taken. If there are two level of of damage taken by the character, it will only heal those two, for example.
Is the contention here that Chiropteran Spies need 12 successes on their activation roll (which is not possible given that it is a roll of straight Gnosis) in order to use their full potential?
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Post by Da Boss on Nov 2, 2020 22:27:48 GMT -5
All healing is always capped at the amount of damage taken, per the healing rules that are listed in multiple places in the book. However, even gifts that heal damage, (Mother's Touch for example)do not include the phrase "up to." That phrase is only used when it references a situation where less is possible. Additionally, there has never been a FAQ that details reading Gaia's Breath in a way other then as it is written, which would be required if the wording on a healing talen was meant to read identical to a gift, when the language is not uniform between the two.
And the contention would be that Chiropteran Spies will not always give you a full 12 hours. There are no mechanics listed for how that break down might occur and what may constitute a roll to determine what gives more or fewer hours on the roll, and that will likely be determined by the storyteller at the time they are used.
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Post by jesara on Nov 2, 2020 23:50:17 GMT -5
All fetishes and talens that base their effect on activation successes state that, in this case that would say "heals for 1 health level per activation success, up to 4 health levels" if it worked the way you are thinking.
A successfully activated Gaia's Breath talen heals for 4 health levels, just like it has in every game always, including the ones moderated by the writers of the game (New Bremen), I have Never seen anyone think it would function in any other way, in 20 years of playing.
Sidenote- You do not have to roll Anything to activate fetishes or talens, they can be activated by Spending gnosis as well.
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Post by Da Boss on Nov 3, 2020 9:34:08 GMT -5
In my 28 years of playing Werewolf, including in the Camarilla official games(the one that the White Wolf itself moderated, directed, and had the president of the organization sitting on the board at White Wolf), it has never been a flat 4, no site that I have ever played at runs it as a flat 4. (Stating that it has always been a flat 4 is a fallacy. Especially since every game I've seen online in the past 5 years do not call it a flat 4.)
Again, words have meanings. No other healing ability, in the entirety of the 20th Anniversary Werewolf published material, heals "up to" a point. It just isn't there. To suggest that a talen, which has different wording, should work identically, is to suggest that the words put into that talen don't matter. Additionally, making it a flat 4 makes that single talen more powerful then any single gift or fetish currently written in the entirety of the history of Werewolf books when it comes to healing. That just isn't going to be the case. No talen should be that strong. Hell, Bane Arrows autohit, for three damage dice. That is less damage than any single walk into a sports store and buy a bow. (Sure, it is aggravated damage, but it is flat out fewer damage dice across the board.) To think that it is balanced to have an item heal for over half a standard health track, every time, all the time, is far more powerful then a simple talen. That is some legendary fetish kind of ability. There is a reason the talen states "up to" and it is, by design, meant to bring it into balance. Can Mother's Touch heal for more than 4? Sure! On average, if you have Intelligence 5 and Empathy 5, you'll average about 5 points of healing over time. That is a maxed intelligence, maxed empathy, specialties that apply, character and it averages 1 more point of healing. No. That's a broken reading of Gaia's Breath talens.
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